This Bodie person has no idea how to argue. He’s all over the place, making claims left and right with no evidence or argument.

My response to this was, “This is a complete waste of my time. Please do not contact me further.”

Hi John,

It is nice to hear from you again. Again, this is still written sincerely.

> Hi John,

>

>

>

> Why are you avoiding my question? See below.

I’m not avoiding your question. I asked YOU a question:

“How do you know the Bible is the inerrent Word of God?”

YOU avoided THAT quesion with: “Prove logic exists.”

I asked nearly 10 questions in my first email, which you disregarded, one of them, specifically, was about logic existing in an atheistic framework. No offence, but you neglected each question, so I reiterated this one question in about 3 emails now. J

After I’ve answered that question, you still have not answered mine.

It would be illogical for me to spend time answering something that you could draw no conclusions from. See, without logic existing in your framework, regardless of what answer was given or not given, would be pointless because you couldn’t analyze my answer because logic wouldn’t have existed in your religion. So I opted not to waste my time until you could prove that logic does indeed exist, thus absolute truth would exist and a reasoned conclusion can ascertained from my answer. This is first time you actually tried to answer.

It is not a very good answer either as I analyze below. You are trying to use logic to indicate your answer. That is illogical. It is like defining a word using the word itself like:

A weddtessterd is defined by be a weddtessterd. It is illogical.

—

Logic, by the way, does not “exist.” That’s an over-simplified way of looking at the world.

Logic doesn’t exist anymore than love exists or justice exists.

Therefore, your comments and conclusions do not exist either. So each of your comments have no basis, have no truth, and are basically null and void such as:

1. ‘Absoultely dismissing another’s opinion because he does not share your religious views is bigoted, arrogant and stupid.’

2. ‘Therefore, rape, murder, theft and other crimes are crimes because they violate someone else’s rights of life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.’

3. ‘it comes from the rational observation that life is short and precious and we all deserve the most rewarding experience we can get.’

4. ‘HOW DARE YOU? Tell this man I have built a friendship with over the course of nearly a decade not to trust me?’

5. ‘Before you go putting slivers in other people’s eyes, why don’t you get a crane and pull the log out of your own?’

6. ‘I can only attribute your arrogance to the complete and ignorant misunderstanding of the teachings of Jesus.’

7. etc.

All of these things are ideas. And they came from the minds of men.

Not if logic doesn’t exist. Without logic, you can’t make this conclusion. Besides, what makes you think ideas exist? You are just trying to push the problem farther back. You say logic doesn’t exist but ideas do? Being a materialist, ideas and logic do not exist. They are merely chemical reactions in you brain that have no basis to mean anything. To materialists, there can’t be ‘meaning’ either. What makes you think that ‘meanings’ exist?

Without men, ideas like love, logic, and justice would not “exist.” They are words we use to describe the world around us.

For example, logic is a tool men use to make sense of a seemingly irrational world.

You already said logic doesn’t exist and now you are changing your position to say that it does through men? That’s inconsistent/illogical. So you think that since men exist, then love, justice, logic, ideas, and meaning exist? Why do you think they exist in man? Do you honestly believe that men have non-material (spiritual) aspects that can determine the spiritual world? That is a biblical principle (man being made in the image of God.)

If you truly believe that man has this ability, then you are not an atheist, because atheists will correct you in that there is no spiritual realm, no logic, no meaning, etc. If your whole basis for logic goes back to man, then you are trying to piggy back off of God’s explanation for why men use logic because man is made in the image of a logical God.

A materialist has no choice but to equate an illogical thought with a logical thought – they are both the same if you are really an atheist. They are both chemical reactions in the brain so why do you think one chemical reaction can actually indicate something spiritual such as meaning, logic, justice, love, etc?

Why do you think you can be sure that love isn’t actually hate or justice isn’t oppression or logic isn’t actually illogical? By what basis can you tell these apart in a materialistic worldview?

Just like math and language and science. Science is the study of the world around us. Science employs the tool of logic to test itself.

Math and science were developed largely by Christians because they believed the creator was logical. Even the scientific method was developed by creationists named Francis Bacon. He knew there were two logical axioms behind it:

1. Induction

2. Causality

Both of these are logical concepts. Thus science and math were both developed because of logic. This developed out of a Christian worldview, not an atheistic one. It couldn’t in atheism, because logic doesn’t exist in a purely atheistic framework.

Since logic is the foundation for these, you can’t use math and science to prove logic since it is already assumed.

You could make the argument that because our senses are imperfect, we cannot trust what we experience, but that leads down a lane you just don’t want to walk, because then we have to argue that NOTHING we experience can actually be proven and that’s about as useful as “God made the world.” In other words, it isn’t useful at all.

It doesn’t lead me down that path because I don’t share the same presupposition as you. You’re presupposition is that God doesn’t exist, and mine is that God does exist. This is the foundation of both our beliefs and worldviews.

Our senses are imperfect because of the curse on creation, that doesn’t effect my position. God is still God and His Word still stands, even though I am imperfect.

Only with your presupposition will you be led down this path that nothing can be proven. I’m actually glad you see where I am leading you using only your own atheistic/materialistic beliefs. By your own philosophy, you can’t prove anything such as logic, meaning, or even that you exist.

Science is an attempt to test the world beyond our own limited senses. Is it perfect? No. But it is self-correcting, and that’s something religion will never be.

As I said before, science is based on logic existing and you haven’t been able to prove that it does exist. So you have no basis to use science.

I do have a basis to use science and science is a great confirmation of God’s Word. Perhaps you don’t know the difference between experimental science and historical science. Good repeatable science is the self correcting type and it has actually been a great tool for Christianity. Historical science is the non-repeatable science about the past. It is the kind that changes everyday and I’m not sure why people call it science in the first palace – maybe to confuse people into thinking it has a great reputation like experimental science.

My history of the past doesn’t change – it is based on the Bible and all evidence can be explained by the Bible – we all have the evidence it is merely the interpretation that is different (historical science). I use my presupposition to interpret the evidence and you use yours. However, since yours has no basis in logic, of course it is going to change.

I don’t have to change my view of history because the Bible accurate explains the world. I know that is difficult for you to believe because your presupposition refuses to let you to look at this possibility. For more on this please see:

> So you don’t think auto-response programs exist?

YES, I believe auto-response programs exist. That’s why I put forth the assertion that you are an auto-response program.

Where did my programming come from? By Laws of Information, my programming can only come from intelligence – God. Please see:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v10/i2/information.asp

You Bible Worriers need better listening skills. I’m serious. You need to start LISTENING and stop thinking of what you’re going to say next.

Why should I trust you, you said logic doesn’t exist, so this conclusion of yours is meaningless. Besides, I asked you nearly 10 questions in the first email and you mustn’t have listen to them and because you failed to respond. J

🙂 I exist because

> God’s Word is my axiom and from that, I am clearly a descendant of

> Adam and Eve, as are you.

“Clearly?”

Hardly.

Prove me wrong. First, to prove me wrong, you need to prove that logic exists. You need to stop trying to piggy-back off of Christina logic by claiming that man has logic otherwise your agreeing that man has a spiritual realm that is made in the image of God. Thus, it would be time to acknowledge God and get yourself right with God before its too late.

Here are the claims you’ve put forth so far (with absolutely no evidence for any of them):

That’s what an axiom is – have you even had a logic class? J I suggest you review here:

My axiom is that God exist and His Word (the Bible) the truth. The first three are my part of my axiom and the 4th is a logical conclusion from the axiom.

1) God exists.

2) God created the world.

3) The Biblical Creation story is true and accurate.

4) You and I are from the race of creatures mentioned in the Bible.

You did the same thing by claiming to be an atheist. Your axiom is that God doesn’t exist, thus material things are all that exist. This was stated with no evidence.

Do you care to back any of those up with double-blind studies and falsification?

Since they are my axiom, they need no logical deduction and studies so these are not applicable. But since you don’t believe logic exists, it wouldn’t matter right? I return the question to you: Do you care to back any of your atheistic beliefs with double-blind studies and falsification?

Or are you going to ask me another question?

No, I am going to repeat my question since you haven’t been able to prove that logic exists. J Please prove that logic exists, without using itself as proof and appealing to Christianity. Even though you can’t indicate that logic does exist and can yield truth, I will answer the second email anyway.

This is very interesting.

You make a claim that God has communicated a perfect moral code. Fascinating.

Could you tell me then, please, a little bit about this perfect moral code. I won’t take up too much of your time, but I do have a question:

How do you know God is responsible for the Bible?

Please answer this question without using the Bible as a reference, if you can.

I will use the Bible to answer. It is my axiom and it would be illogical to give up my axiom and accept your axiom to answer the question. It would be like me asking you to prove that atheism is true using only the Bible as a reference. I am not an atheist, so I have no reason to stand on such a faulty foundation to answer the question.

I will use my view to discuss my view and not other religious views such as Buddhism, or Hinduism, or atheism to as a basis to evaluate the Bible. This is why I questioned you on the basis of your view.

Christ, being God, accepted the entire Old Testament canon that we have. The New was discussed by Paul as well as many others. For example:

2 Timothy 3:15–17:
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

For more please see:

John, I want to encourage you to realize that the only place we differ is at a foundational level. You first believe that God doesn’t exist and first believe God does exist.

Being on your foundation, has left you without a basis for logic, without a basis for love, without meaning, without concepts of justice. I have those things and can defend them based on my axiom. I really want to encourage you to trust God’s Word.

You know your not perfect and you know you’re a sinner. I know you don’t want to believe in God. But either way God does exist and He will punish sin. You can either be forgiven or not. He has blessed you with years of life and all you have to do is make one decision – accept Jesus Christ.

I want to encourage you to read the Bible. You can read it for free here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=genesis%201&version1=31

I suggest reading Genesis 1-11, the Gospel of John and then Romans. This will give you a great overview and then read the rest. If you truly believe life has value, even though atheistic thought teaches otherwise, then I want to encourage you to give your life to Christ and receive the gift of eternal life.

Kind regards in Christ,

Bodie